Fast diving, a myth?

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by aeneas

A lot of the rest makes me think you're not diving fast _enough_.

I agree with that. I hardly ever play mages, so I didn't want to chime in before, but recently I posted a high-elf mage to the ladder.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8001

It seems that it is possible to dive with a mage. I made it all the way to 4950' before I found Raal's. I did kill off a dozen earlier tries on their first trip. Then I figured out I needed to make a quick trip to 100' and back to get money for a +1 longbow and 99 arrows in addition to ?recall and the first two spellbooks before the first real dive.

That's in my patched version, but it isn't so different from Vanilla.

[aeneas]

Originally Posted by PowerDiver

I agree with that. I hardly ever play mages, so I didn't want to chime in before, but recently I posted a high-elf mage to the ladder.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=8001

It seems that it is possible to dive with a mage. I made it all the way to 4950' before I found Raal's. I did kill off a dozen earlier tries on their first trip. Then I figured out I needed to make a quick trip to 100' and back to get money for a +1 longbow and 99 arrows in addition to ?recall and the first two spellbooks before the first real dive.

That's in my patched version, but it isn't so different from Vanilla.

I haven't played them a lot either for similar reasons, and my fastest win with a mage is a lot slower than my fastest win. But I do think they are divable, and I am inclined to think you could get pretty fast with them. I really didn't think you could dive with a Priest until Cliff started posting, which just goes to show what I know .

I'm inclined to think that it makes sense to get enough money for a better bow than +1 for the first real dive. Because arrows do so little damage, but bows multiply the damage, the first few pluses are really important. With a +5 to_dam bow you can deal with everything you have to deal with for a long time, even as a mage. My experience tells me that mages should be archers for a long time.

The big problem is later... even with constant haste and resistance your HP are just so low- you have to play very differently because of that. But, if you can move fast at the start I think you can win fast with any character. That initial hump is the slowest thing for spellcasters.

Looking at your dump it's clear you know this. But the thing is... 289 HP? That's really hard to overcome. I think you have to get lucky with Con.

[Zikke]

I think mages they are GREAT (perhaps the best) divers at high levels due to versatility and escapability, but are pretty hard early on. Once you get ridiculous spells like Word of Destruction, a high level recharge, and some others, you can dive all the way to the bottom with a staff of Healing, staff of Detect Objects, and a wand of TO. I just dove from 50 to 85 to get Raal's spellbook from a vault and it was easier than I thought.

edit: not sure how I can again play a class without DimDoor ^_^

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by g. rodrigues

So the natural question, is this kind of diving suicidal? The people that dive fast, what precautions do they take? How do you save yourself from the boredom of yo-yoing through the levels and actually kill something worthy (of loot at least)?

It appears that with luck it is not necessarily suicide. It's not about taking precautions, but rather about trying to survive with what you have. Save up devices to kill high-value creatures, and use missile weapons on everything else you cannot avoid. Mana is generally too important to waste it on damage spells until you get Raal's. If you yo-yo, you are not diving. Boredom is *not* a concern.

This is a synopsis of a dive with a high-elf mage using randarts and disconnected stairs playing my patched version. I was attempting suicide, but failed. I posted a little more detail [mostly whining] to rgra, and I posted to the ladder about halfway through. Here are the milestones.


Spent initial money on longbow and ?+dam.
First trip quick to 100' and back for money for ?recall.

?MB7 [Mordenkainens] at 1250', would toss it many trips later never having used it.

100 hp at 1250'

First elemental resistances at 2000': ring, amulet, and armor.

Full rBase at 2150'.

ESP hat [randart] at 2300'.

Randart armor with rBase at 2400', would not know for some time.

a Light Crossbow of Power (x3) (+11,+21) at 2400' trip following rBase trip.

I was using other rings, only knew I had rAcid and rElec at 2800', simply hoping about randart armor.

?MB5 at 2800'.

Ring of rPoison at 2800'.

FA [ring] at 2800'.

Regen at 3000', finally *ID for randart armor from 2400'.

200 hp at 3150'.

Westernesse(+2) at 3500'.

300 hp at 3500'.

Bronze scale at 3800'

Ring +5 speed at 4250'.

Defender at 4250'

Randart ring with iAcid at 4250'.

Randart amulet with rPoison + rDark + FA at 4250'.

Randart amulet with rBlind and con+2 at 4500'.

Boots of stability at 4500'.

Ring con+6 at 4550'.

Randart armor with rbase + rConf + rSound + rChaos at 4550'.

400 hp at 4550'.

Xbow(x3)(+17,+15){+1 shot} at 4800'.

Randart cloak with rBlind + regen + FA at 4800'.

Ring int+5 [allowing 0% fail if worn] at 4800'.

500 hp at 4800'.

Made it to 4950' using about 294K turns and 22 trips.

Another 12 trips using 60K turns, slowly improving kit and collecting dungeon spellbooks, killing Wyrms and uniques, since bad luck with con boosts on randarts.

Then 2 final trips using 10K turns to finish off S [and most of the summoned uniques] and M.

[aeneas]

That really is a frighteningly impressive win. The tension level of that game must have been pretty high. It isn't your turncounts that I find really impressive, it's the fact that you seem to get them without big pieces of luck. I've played some very quick games (though not as quick as yours), but they generally involved some early speed and some other nice lucky finds.

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by aeneas

That really is a frighteningly impressive win. The tension level of that game must have been pretty high. It isn't your turncounts that I find really impressive, it's the fact that you seem to get them without big pieces of luck. I've played some very quick games (though not as quick as yours), but they generally involved some early speed and some other nice lucky finds.

It was really tense at first, but then it just got silly. Less than 200 hp at 3000'. I was laughing out loud, it was so silly. I just kept making my way to the next stair or trapdoor and going down. My 2nd or 3rd trip to 4950 gave me a checkerboard vault, and then there was no more tension.

I particularly remember searching out an emperor wight, and it cursed me for half my hp and I kept blasting away. I didn't know if one more curse would kill me, but I knew at least I had a chance to kill it, unlike so many other high value foes.

[aeneas]

Originally Posted by PowerDiver

It was really tense at first, but then it just got silly. Less than 200 hp at 3000'. I was laughing out loud, it was so silly. I just kept making my way to the next stair or trapdoor and going down. My 2nd or 3rd trip to 4950 gave me a checkerboard vault, and then there was no more tension.

The last time I tried diving with a mage my experience was similar, though less extreme as I was not going anywhere near as fast as you were. I think at 3000' I was still under 300 hp, but that extra 100 is pretty huge- 200 is just ridiculous. I had also found a really nice Heavy XBow pretty early, which is really helpful. I think I got cold feet a bit in that game, and died from spending too much time in the 60s and 70s- that and doing something dumb. I'm guessing that one of the keys to the way you play is never letting cold feet take over.

Originally Posted by PowerDiver

I particularly remember searching out an emperor wight, and it cursed me for half my hp and I kept blasting away. I didn't know if one more curse would kill me, but I knew at least I had a chance to kill it, unlike so many other high value foes.

Well, there's a good example of no cold feet. I don't think I would have done that. I have to admit that when I saw your dump I was thinking your prospects were pretty grim. Have you won in <400k with every class now?

[PowerDiver]

Originally Posted by aeneas

Have you won in <400k with every class now?

Not yet with a warrior. They start so slow without access to detect stairs. My current warrior had an extremely lucky find, boots of speed +10 at 1900', and should do it if I survive. Currently 3100' and 210K turns, but only 465 hp so there will still be plenty of chances to die.