They got pushed earlier, to 100', 300' and 500'. This sets smiths up early, but after 500' they're falling back on Delvings, Revelations and exploration to find more.

Thanks for working on the game! : D

I'm a total newbie and all I've managed to find are some small interface and documentation issues that are no doubt old and known. Here they are just in case:




- Tutorial - Gauntlets note: says "penalty of -1 to your attacks" instead of "penalty of -1 to your accuracy"

Screenshot: https://smbhax.com/stuff/misc/silq150b2_01_gaunt.jpg
Video: https://youtu.be/TQphAkVMM_A?t=1325

The note on the (-1) [+0, 1d1] Gauntlets in the tutorial says "this means that they give a penalty of -1 to your attacks..." It goes on to say "armour and weapons in Sil come with trade-offs between attack (chance of hitting; damage) and defence (chance of evading hits; damage reduction)."

Because it says "penalty of -1 to your attacks" rather than "to your accuracy," and later says "attack (chance of hitting; damage)," I got confused and thought that by "attacks" it meant that the "(-1)" stat for the gauntlets meant they give -1 to both accuracy and damage.

The 1.5.0-beta2.pdf manual in the root directory, under Combat - Weapons and Armour, on the other hand, calls a (-1) on a piece of armor "a penalty to accuracy." I'm guessing this is the correct statement, and that the tutorial should say "accuracy" instead of "attacks" when talking about the (-1) on the gauntlets.




- Tutorial - Shortsword note: "that it is bears an enchantment" typo

Screenshot: https://smbhax.com/stuff/misc/silq150b2_02_sword.jpg
Video: https://youtu.be/TQphAkVMM_A?t=1797

The note about the shortsword in the tutorial says "indicating to the perceptive player that it is bears an enchantment against orcs." The "is" is superfluous and confusing, and should be removed.




- Tutorial traps note: "can be disarmed while holding down Control while attempting to move into it" inaccurate if "hjkl" move keys option is on

Screenshot: https://smbhax.com/stuff/misc/silq150b2_03_traps.jpg
Video: https://youtu.be/TQphAkVMM_A?t=2057

The note in the tutorial about traps says "like most traps, it can be disarmed by holding down Control while attempting to move into it..." However, if the player has the "Move with hjkl etc" Interface Option set, and tries to move with them while holding Control, the game will not execute a trap disarm function, but will instead execute the "underlying key" for whichever hjkl key you pressed--and the trap will not be disarmed.

Perhaps the note could explain that with hjkl keys on, the user can instead use the / key followed by a direction to disarm traps. (The old D key also works.)




- Skills menu: ESC or other key acts like Enter (confirm) if alphabetic shortcut key used to select ability

Screenshot: https://smbhax.com/stuff/misc/silq150b2_04_skills.jpg
Video: https://youtu.be/TQphAkVMM_A?t=8131

Since the xjkl keys don't work at all for navigating list menu screens such as the Skills menu, I resorted to browsing through ability descriptions in the Skills screen by picking skills and abilities directly via hitting the key corresponding to their "x)" alphabetic key label. This seems to cause a minor bug to occur once you've selected an ability that way, however: at that point, hitting ESC to back out acts as though you hit Enter to learn the ability, bringing up the "Are you sure you wish to gain this ability? [y/n]" confirmation prompt.

For instance:
1) From gameplay, hit Tab to bring up the Skills menu
2) On the Skills menu screen, press a to select the Melee skill
3) Press d to select the Polearm Mastery ability
4) Press the ESC key
-- Instead of backing you out of the Ability list, the "Are you sure you wish to gain this ability [y/n]?" prompt appears, as if you had hit Enter instead of ESC.

I found this also happened if I hit the p key instead of ESC; those were just the two keys I tried.




- Skills menu: available menu navigation keys not shown

Some menu screens, such as the Character Creation screens, list the navigation keys available for those screens at screen bottom. The Skills menu screen, however, does not tell the user what keys to use--so the user may not immediately know they learn a skill by selecting it with various navigation keys and finally hitting Enter, for instance.




- Help menu (mouse): Selecting "Contents" causes a "Cannot find help file" warning window to appear

Screenshot: https://smbhax.com/stuff/misc/silq150b2_05_help.jpg

When I selected "Help--Contents" from the game's top mouse menu, a window titled "Warning" appeared in the middle of the screen, saying "Cannot find help file: C:\Program Files\Sil-Q\lib\xtra\help\angband.hlp"--that was my correct directory for the game, but no "help" subfolder exists under "lib\xtra" in my fresh installation of 1.5.0-beta2.

There is a "tutorial" file in "lib\xtra," although I don't know how to open it so I can't tell if that's what was intended. I tried giving it a ".hlp" extension and then opening it, but this opened a Microsoft Support page https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...7-1a149da3973b saying "The Windows Help program is not supported in Windows 10, Windows Server 2012 or later versions of Windows Server. The Windows Help program is available for Windows Vista, 7, 8 and 8.1 only. Microsoft strongly recommends that software developers discontinue using the Windows Help application."




- Game references/files for "the manual" are unclear

Multiple confusing documentation issues regarding "the manual":

a) I encountered multiple recommendations by the game text--I think mostly in the tutorial, for instance in the note at the end of the basic part of the tutorial ("You now know more than enough..."; Video: https://youtu.be/TQphAkVMM_A?t=3207 ) --to read "the manual" for more information about the game's functions. It wasn't quite clear to me what exactly was meant by "the manual," although perhaps I missed some more specific direction given at some point.

I was unable to find a "manual" in the game's menus.

b) There are two pdf files with "manual" in their name in the extracted game's "lib\docs" folder: "Sil 1.3 Manual.pdf" (438 KB) and "Sil-Q 1.4.2 Manual.pdf" (4.28 MB). Judging from those titles, these are versions of Sil/Sil-Q manuals, but out of date ones. Possibly they should be removed to avoid confusion. Removing them would also save file space: the 1.4.2 manual alone accounts for about half of the game's total installation size.

c) There is a "Sil-Q v1.5.0-beta2.pdf" file (823 KB) in the game's root directory. This appears to be the actual, current manual. As such, it should have "manual" or something similar in its file name.

Since users may simply extract later Sil-Q releases into their existing installation folder, perhaps the manual should keep the same file name and location from version to version, ie "silq_manual.pdf," so that it will be overwritten by later versions, preventing further obsolete manuals from accumulating in the game's installation folders as time goes on.




- Manual: "dangerous place to tally" typo

In Sil-Q v1.5.0-beta2.pdf, in a paragraph discussing overuse of stairways, the text reads "making staircases a dangerous place to tally, say, while healing..."

"Tally" doesn't make sense in that context; probably "dally" was intended.




- Manual: "artefact" spelling differs from "artifact" spelling in game

Throughout Sil-Q v1.5.0-beta2.pdf, the spelling "artefact" is used when speaking of a particularly powerful type of item. The game, however, consistently spells this item type with an i rather than an e: "artifact"--in the Skills--Abilities--Jeweller section of the Skills screen, for instance.




Well, sorry for the cascade of minor things there. ^_^ I've been having a great deal of fun with the game so far and am looking forward to playing it more. : )

Thank you very much for reporting all these issues, it's reports like these that make the game better. Hope you continue to enjoy your play!

Thanks! : )

In trying to map keys for Use and Look so I don't have to press Ctrl with u and l all the time under the hjkl key scheme, I stumbled across a few more documentation-related things:



Macros and keymaps are not documented

They're pretty confusing. I finally managed to get myself working alternate keys for u and l with keymaps--so I don't have to use Ctrl with them all the time under the hjkl keys option--but it took a long time: I had trouble with finding keys to put them on; trouble with trying them as macros at first and finding that makes whatever keys I put them on unusable for anything else in the game, like typing those letters in a character name; trouble with figuring out how to save and load them properly; and trouble with figuring out that keymaps have to refer to the "underlying" key function, so for Use in hjkl I needed to specify "u" rather than "^u". And I guess I still need to load a .prf file to get them into any new character I make; I couldn't find a way to have them--or my preferred Options settings--on as defaults for new characters.



; (repeatable direction?) key is undocumented

Pressing ; prompts you to input a direction to "repeat," or something, but it doesn't do continuous movement like . does, and it is not listed in the ? command list. I couldn't figure out what it does. (I found it when looking for a handy key to use for my keymap--for now I've mapped Use to it. : p)



[ (Monsters you can see) and ] (Items you can see) are undocumented

Stumbled across [ and ] when looking for potential keys for keymaps, and I'm glad I did! They aren't listed in the ? command list, yet they seem incredibly useful; Angband's "Item list" subwindow is one of two things vanilla has that I was really wishing this game had--the other being a persistent levels option--but ] at least goes a little way toward that. Both keys seems like something new players could benefit from knowing about.

(I would still really like to have an Item List subwindow though. ^_^)



\ and - are not listed in the ? command list

\ (brings up a seemingly redundant command prompt) and - (described on the Skills screen under Fletchery) are not listed in the ? command list.




#

More examples to supplement smbhax observations:

At the character sheet screen:
Pressing Enter/Return key exits that screen. Perhaps there should be extra message to indicate this is as intended or make Enter/Return not do that

Pressing Spacebar bring up the in-game log? Was this intended? Again, adding another statement on spacebar usage would be useful

When offering an item to an alert Thrall:
Although the Esc key cancels the offer, the prompt says "Esc" by itself. It should say "Press 'Esc' to cancel offer." I know this is self-explanatory but I want this to be more obvious to other players who are new to this

I ran across a bug:

I Smith a War Hammer of Crushing (-1,4d3) by reducing the "special" bonus to zero, i.e. it now increases strength by +0. All good. However, if I wield the Hammer, and then exit and restart the game, the Hammer is magically transformed to be +1 to strength, rather than +0.

Have replicated this and will look into it. Free time has been at a premium lately, hope to get more over the weekend.

I know it was changed a few versions ago, but the fact that shafts never crumble on the ascent trivializes it. Scum until you see the next exit. Egress. Might be needed due to how deadly V is to sneakers right now, idk.

- Subwindow draw order reverses after task switch
- Subwindow title bars don't obey Windows "Dark" color setting

This is just a minor aesthetic annoyance and possibly not even something the game's window manager can control, but in the Windows version, which seems to have a hard-coded order of overlap in which the subwindows are initially loaded, that subwindow draw order is reversed once you task switch away from the game and back to it again. This makes it impossible to keep the subwindows in a fixed order of overlap.

Combined with the title bars of subwindows staying a bright color even when the Windows "Color" setting is changed to "Dark," it means the player can't quite keep the subwindows rearranged to hide those very bright title bars at all times. =p

For instance:

- Place the Equipment subwindow overlapping the Inventory subwindow
- Place the Messages subwindow overlapping both Equipment and Inventory
- Save and quit Sil-Q
- Start Sil-Q back up and reload your character
-- Inventory is now overlapping Equipment, and both are overlapping Messages
- Task-switch to a different program, then back to Sil-Q
-- Equipment is back to overlapping Inventory, and both are back to overlapping Messages


This isn't a huge problem, but it leads to a minor inconvenience if you're like me and have your subwindows arranged super-obsessively to hide the glaringly bright title bars of the lower subwindows (I have Windows 10 set to Dark color but the game's window title bars don't seem to obey that Windows setting; also, the title bars just take up screen space = p), like so

Screenshot: before task switch

where, specifically, I've got the Inventory subwindow overlapping the top of the Equipment window below it, to hide the Equipment subwindow's title bar--and the game saves and restores perfectly with this arrangement. But once I Alt+Tab to task switch to another Windows program/window, then Alt+Tab back to Sil-Q, I find that the Inventory window has pushed to the back, so the Equipment subwindow's title bar is now showing over it:

Screenshot: after task switch

Clicking on the Inventory subwindow hides the Equipment subwindow title bar again, but this has to be re-done after every task switch if you're obsessed about keeping those bright title bars from glaring at you, like I am. ; )

Surprisingly, if you use ^e to swap the contents of the Equipment and Inventory subwindows, and rearrange them to swap their window layout positions, the Equipment window, now functioning as Inventory, is now the one that moves to the back after task switching.

If I swap the positions of the Inventory and Equipment subwindows, and have the bottom of Equipment overlapping the title bar of Inventory, this avoids the problem of the Equipment title bar showing after task switching; however, when starting the game, Inventory is initially drawing above Equipment, requiring a single click in Equipment to bring it to the front and hide Inventory's title bar. But Equipment then stays above Inventory through task switches, so that arrangement is usually better for me than having to click to hide Equipment's title bar after each task switch when they're in the reversed positions.

So yes I am apparently complaining about a minor aesthetic problem triggered only by my obnoxiously obsessive window arrangement habit, and which I can work around with a single mouse click or dual task switch after starting the game. ^_^

Thanks again for the bug reports, bron.

Have fixed the returning strength value, I think. I think it was actually a bug on all ego items with 0 pval, so it works also for armour.

The arrows bug was harder to replicate. I have managed it but it needs somewhat specific circumstances. You need the first slot to be below 99 arrows so it refills, but picking up arrows usually adds them to the first slot. If the second slot has 99 arrows, the bug doesn't appear to show itself. Once you manage to create initial conditions with less than 99 arrows of the same type across two quivers, you will find that taking off the arrows doesn't take them off but adds them to the first quiver instead. Have fixed this on my master branch also.

Have fixed tutorial issues, and after a frustrating hour or two deleted the Windows help menu since I was not having any success trying to get it to launch the PDF. Micr0Chasm will probably fix up the manual.

The macros and keymaps I am afraid I know nothing about. Sil is built on an old and ugly Angband codebase. Dragons lurk.

The Windows code is very dated and I am afraid I only make fixes under some duress. Similarly rearranging the terminal UI is enough of a pain I probably won't attempt to document the arrow keys on the character screen.

Removing a weapon in tiles doesn't clear the symbol in the equipment window. Going to Ascii and back fixes it.

Cool! Yeah a lot of that stuff does look old and scary. ^_ ^

More awful noob feedback = o

Even though I did the tutorial--weeks ago, which is way more time than I need to forget everything--when I actually encountered a forge in the wild with my complete non-crafting build, I forgot everything, even how to use it; for instance, I was puzzled as to why I couldn't activate it while standing next to it, and actually had to stand *on* it before I could use it:

idiot meets a forge

I couldn't grasp the forging UI at all; the color coding completely bypassed my understanding, for instance: I managed to take the red text as just colorful decoration rather than meaning "you can't do this because you don't have the skill, moron." The two-tone graying out of things, my brain found inscrutable--I think it would have needed things a lot *more* grayed out? I don't know. And I'm completely in the dark about Artifice and Melt.

Looking back at the tutorial section on forging, I notice that it just tells you what keys to hit to produce a certain item for which you conveniently have everything necessary, without explaining why that works or what all the other forge options do.

Separately, I'm confused about identifying things. I haven't found anything like a old-fashioned Scroll of Identify. Do you need the actual specific crafting skills in order to identify things like staves, rings and potions? (Aside from maybe learning by using staves and potions that have obvious effects?) In the tutorial, the only thing I could find on identifying was that you find a magic sword, and learn its orc-slaying enchantment by hitting a conveniently placed nearby orc or whatever with it.

There are fairly rare staffs of ID. There is ID by use. And there is an expensive perception ability.

Melting lets you transform mithril items into raw mithril, which you can make other mithril items with.

Artifice requires you to make a item of some basic type, then using the Artifice menu add any of a very wide range of modifications to it.

If you don't mind, I'll take this as a solitary report for now. This is the first feedback I've had so far where forging has been found unintuitive; and there's a certain baseline level of unintuitiveness about ASCII roguelikes it is hard to fully resolve.

So if you can make the item (via Enchantment or Jewellery) you can identify it. If you are especially skilled in the use of staves or horns (via Channelling) you can identify them also. Alchemy lets you identify potions and herbs, but also staves and horns - this is largely a convenience thing as many players don't want to "play the ID game".

It is possible to use-identify items also, but you need to be in a situation where their use has noticeable effects. A staff of Imprisonment, which locks doors, needs to be identified near an unlocked door; a potion of Clarity or Antidote when you are suffering from an effect curable by such potions. All but a few potions are quite readily identifiable, but many staffs require a nearby enemy to make identification possible. This requires an awareness of what the possibilities are to do well, and so is a skill acquired with experience of the game. Not everyone loves this mechanic, but it is as old as Rogue itself.

As Pete Mack mentions, there are also staffs of identify that can be used to identify any type of items.

I have in the recent past looked into a large overhaul of items to make them more Tolkienesque, but there are many things I would like to change there and doing so would force players to relearn the ID game entirely, so I have put this off for the unspecified future.

version 1.5.0-beta2

Bless me father for I've sinned and these are my....feedback points;

1. Undo last learnt ability: Has this ever been bought up? This was a minor quibble for me in the old Sil as well. Quite a few times, I selected an ability by mistake. I know there's a simple confirmation but a lot of times just a simple feature like this would have helped the player greatly. Sometimes we don't think it through you know! or for other human error-related reasons. I've noticed this feature in quite a few RPG games and there you even have the luxury of errr loading a saved game hehe. My entire character then has to pay for that misplaced and wasted XP till he dies. Of course, it should have a strict window period with after certain conditions, you wouldn't be able to undo anymore. I know this would be potentially exploitable by the player otherwise. Like my last character, I think I chose "impale" which near "follow-through" and I didn't even use polearms! And now I had to pay more XP for follow-through. At the top of my head say if I could have undone that in the menu itself, this being say the window period, exiting it ends the period. I didn't think this through more and I'm sure we all could come up with better ideas if this is taken up as a feature.
   
2. Ditto per above but for forging: When you're about to forge, it doesn't even ask for that simple confirmation. I've created quite a few items by mistake like this.
   
3. I'm a bit confused about the manual. I could only find the manual for version 1.4 so it didn't tell me what abilities like "Oath" did. Also what "Stand fast against foes" did, this I learnt only trying out the equipment and then seeing it was knockback + swap location resistance when such monsters attacked me.
   
4. If my memory servers right the old Sil or if not, vaniila Angband, explicitly changes the wording of smite weapons while attacking the said monster. "you smite the orc" instead of "you hit the orc". Wouldn't this minor thing be a good QOL improvement? As opposed to me making sure I'm holding the right primary or secondary weapon when I view my equipment periodically as fighting scenarios change?

This is not a particularly simple feature to implement, and would of course be very abusable if the player was able to take a turn with the new skill and then undo it. I think the confirmation is enough here as I'm afraid I haven't heard this complaint from anyone else.

Forging similarly requires you to accept the item before you start, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to have an extra confirmation on accepting the item with its full name given to you before you begin crafting.

The current manual is in the main directory of the zip. Not all item properties are listed in the manual, but a staff of self-knowledge generally will give you additional detailed information on item abilities.

Sil does not, and what you call "smite" weapons are in fact "slay" weapons. You may be thinking of the weapon identification on initial attack, which tells you that your weapon strikes truly.

Sil-Q does use "you smite the orc" to tell you that you attacked using the Smite skill. There are in fact a fair few such variations: in the original you had "stealthily attack" and "charge", now there are also "impale" and "smite". All of these would need additional modifiers based on the weapon - which could have a slay, or could have sharpness, or be branded, or be vampiric. In short this seems like the kind of thing that would risk making messages get too long and cause the player to have to respond to -more- prompts on every hit. This is fine on initial ID, but tedious afterwards.

The inventory window already displays weapon glow when you have an enemy nearby that the weapon slays, and your light radius changes.

Yea, I'd imagine it being exploitable. How about keeping it undo very strict, only restricted to the ability menu? Meaning if I learn impale and it was a mistake, I can undo it as long as I remain in the menu. Once I exit it, the chance is lost forever? In this way, the player is not allowed to play his character at all. Hehe I'm the only complainant? Then I completely get you.


Thanks, I was looking for the manual since I was playing via the Android port.


Oh. I didn't think this through. Okay then, the current ways of knowing your slay weapon I'm aware of, so that's cool.

Thanks!

Oh and a big thanks for your work in continuing Sil! I was playing it since last month and I last played the original a few years ago. It's definitely gone way forward. :cool: I even got my highest score of reaching Morgoth and managing to escape just one level above. I think my old highscore wasn't beyond 700 ft before. I put in a lot of hours this time.

is concentration supposed to work with opportunist?

Both of these used to work in synergy in Vanilla Sil before a certain version, several years ago. After a certain point, half/Scatha decided put a stop to this. So Concentration no longer synergizes with Opportunist

was this considered overpowered? it's deep into two trees that aren't melee/evasion, and the enemy needs to be running away already.

I realized I was thinking of the charge+knockback+opportunistic +/- concentration connection. I might be completely wrong about what I said earlier. My mistake.

That said, solely Concentration + Opportunist alone ISN'T overpowered per se. Because the enemy has to move away every time, you constantly need to move. So, Concentration won't hold because you keep moving. You'd have to say in one place in order for Concentration to keep effect.

@Quirk

Any word on the actual 1.5 release? ~10 days left before Christmas...

Found a probable bug:
Confusion doesn't prevent Veagance from taking effect. Not sure if Fear or Stunned prevents Veagance either. imo, all of these should prevent Veagance to varying degrees

what does "stand fast" do?

"Stand fast" prevents monsters, like Mountain trolls for examples, from doing Knock-Backs to you.

Or cats from exchanging places. Essentially it prevents any modification of the player position from enemy skills that would change their location.

i forgot i asked this question lol
that's actually really useful. knockback breaks concentration chains which is really annoying.